Parvati Shallow Says RIP to the ‘Black Widow’ and All That

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Parvati Shallow, thereality TV maven and one-timeSurvivorwinner, can now also add published author to her list of achievements.

The legendary schemer, who orchestrated scores of blindsides on the beaches of the Cook Islands, Micronesia, and Fiji, has published a new memoir from Penguin Random House titledNice Girls Don’t Win: How I Burned It All Down to Claim My Power. The book, a deeply revealing, personal excavation of Shallow’s childhood, divorce, relationships, and experience with reality television, is out now. She also gets into the nitty gritty of what happened during her manySurvivorappearances.

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During her time onSurvivor,Shallow became known as one of the greatest and most adaptable threats to ever play the game. She was known for using charm—or “fawning,” as she calls it in her book—to manipulate players and build loyal alliances. As the leader of the so-called “Black Widow Brigade” duringSurvivor: Micronesia, Shallow famously voted out men one by one.

Shallow, who has also appeared onTraitorsandDeal or No Deal Island, spoke with WIRED about her new book, social media,Survivorworld’s reaction to women on the show, the politics ofSurvivor, and who from the cast apologized following her time on the beach.

This interview has been edited for clarity and length.

WIRED: I have to start this interview with the very last page of your book, which reads, “In loving memory of the Black Widow. She served me well, and now she's free. 2008 to 2025.” What does that mean?

Parvati Shallow:I stumbled into the Black Widow role when I playedSurvivorthe second time. And in order to play that game, to win, I had to become a different person. So I stepped into this energy, the power, this costume, this role of the Black Widow. And then it became me. It's like, I couldn't take it off. Every time I played a reality game, after I wonMicronesia, I was known as the Black Widow. And it came with its own aura of terror, and also curiosity from my colleagues in the competitive sphere.

But after writing my book, and after my last stint onSurvivor: Australia V The World, which is going to air in August, I was like, “Oh, I've outgrown the role.” She's not more powerful than me anymore. It's not like a role that I need to put on to protect myself or to have people respond to me in a certain way. I can shed that skin now with love, and I can let someone else pick her up and play with her and put that role on. Because she's incredible, she's super powerful, she's really fun to play with, and she gets what she wants. So whoever wants to pick up the Black Widow costume role from here and take it on, you have my blessing.

During my pandemicSurvivorbinge, I watched your Micronesia season from 2008, and you had such a clear vision as the Black Widow. You played the game so well. I was shocked when I looked up your press after the season and saw such vitriol about it. You wrote in your book that you were portrayed as a “slut” or “manipulative whore,” all of this really awful language. That’s not how you’ve been discussed more recently, in what I would call the recentSurvivorrenaissance. What was it like to see that big switch?

It was really healing. It felt like I was taking medicine. I was like, “Oh my god, this is so nice,” because I didn't expect it. I had gone through what happened in my twenties with the press and critics and the backlash from the girl power. People are scared of it. I'll stand behind that power that women have forever and always promote it and encourage it in myself and everyone else. And I have a daughter, so I'm like, girl, you need to use your voice and be yourself.

But when I was in my twenties, I really didn't have a strong sense of self, and I internalized a lot of that criticism, and it really impacted the choices that I made in my life. So I started making some really unhealthy choices, which I wrote about in the book. It was only coming out the other side and playing onTraitorsand then receiving all the love afterTraitorsis really when I was like, “Oh, maybe I wasn't so bad after all. Maybe all the mean things that people said weren't true.” Hearing other voices say how impressive my gameplay was, and acknowledging that I had strategy as well as a curvy bod or whatever, it was so nice. It felt like the scales were balancing.

This is WIRED, so I have to ask: So often, I am looking at social media and the way that it negatively portrays women. But in your case, the gospel of Mother Parvati has spread throughout social media.Evan Ross Katz, notedSurvivorfan and so much more, is mentioned in your book—he's one of those accounts that I think of when it comes to buoying you and your gameplay. How has social media played into all this?

I love the memes that people make. In the past, in my first few go-rounds on the island, social media wasn't really a thing. It was, like, MySpace, right? Twitter was just starting, so it wasn't that impactful then. But since I've gone back to reality shows, it's like I went back just in time for the social media revolution to be supportive rather than something that's been really nasty. I mean, I still get haters like everyone else, but it doesn't really matter anymore.

Since writing my book, I see myself more holistically and accept the good and the bad parts, all the parts I wrote about in the book—the selfish, greedy, slutty, whatever parts, they're all OK, just like the generous, kind, loving, supportive parts. I think social media can be sort of a magnifying glass on certain aspects of a person, that if you don't have a holistic view of yourself, you can get kind of thrown off your center. Now, I just love the love and I can engage with the funny memes and GIFs that everyone posts about me.

What are some of your favorites?

I love them. The one that people made of me inCook Islands on the pirate ship, when they like, pan the camera to me and I'm pouting sultry to the camera. I'm like, I remember that moment, and I remember being like, oh, here comes the camera. Here's my chance. And I really turned it on. So I love that the gays have picked that up and are like, “Oh my God, this girl,” and they go on a boat, and they reenact that moment. It's so funny to me.

When I didTraitors, there was all this footage of me squinting and pouting at people. Everyone's memed that, and the headbands. It's really funny.Taylor OwenandJames Neal, they're a couple, and they do parodies on shows. They're so good. They did one of me and Peter fromTraitors, and it was this very chemical moment where Peter and I are sizing each other up, and I'm like looking at him, and he's gazing at me. And Taylor is so funny. She stacks headbands up higher and higher as the camera pans away and pans back. They're hilarious, and they're now my new best friends. I love them so much.

You go onSurvivornow, you go on these shows now, and it's an entirely different landscape. How do you think portrayals and even conversations about women onSurvivorhave changed, as a result of this new era not just of gameplay but how it's being received?

I think people are more accepting of women being strategic and being strategic forces in the game ofSurvivor. There are still some issues when it comes to women versus men on that show. I think it is sort of a male-dominated culture. It always has been and continues to be, though they have been putting effort in to make it more balanced. It’s just that the bias still exists. It definitely reflects society as a whole, and society's fear of an empowered woman. Not just an empowered woman, but specifically an empowered woman who is also attractive, who is kind of threatening on multiple levels.

There were a lot of really moving parts about this in your book. One of the things that was shocking to me was your section on the 2010Heroes vs. Villainsseason and your treatment right after. Years later, how was writing that? How was reliving that?

There were a few times when I sat down to write stories where I forced my body to sit at my table, and I just kept leaving my body. I did not want to relive that stuff. I didn't want to look back at it. It was so incredibly painful. TheHeroes vs. Villainsstory, especially because of the context of my life around it, was really difficult. That coincided with my brother's accident, his hospitalization, and the death of my friend's brother, and just so much swirling around in that period of time that nobody knew. And for me to playSurvivorat the level that I played, I couldn't share any of that. I couldn't be vulnerable with anyone and tell anyone what was happening in my life. And it was a different era where production didn't tell stories beyond the person's game. So I was reduced to a character in that bubble, in that moment in time, where people were already very threatened by me fromMicronesia. And it was super crazy, with rampant sexism at the time.

JT [Thomas’s] speech when he’d been voted out, which I mention in the book, where he said, “Never, ever trust a woman. Just never do it.” That's where people's heads were at when I played that season. So sitting down and writing this stuff, I knew that I hadn’t repaired some of these relationships, like my relationship with Amanda [Kimmel, Shallow’s ally in the so-called Black Widow Brigade] still doesn't exist. I would love to reconnect with her. I think I've done a lot of work to repair relationships from the past, not run away from conflict. But there's some stuff that's still alive. It was really, really therapeutic to sit down and write this stuff, because I didn't even know how much the intensity of those emotions and experiences were still in me until I sat down to write.

You mentioned Amanda. Where do your friendships with other folks from theSurvivorcommunity stand right now? I have to say, yourPaper interviewwith Natalie Bolton, anotherHeroes vs. Villainsplayer, was iconic.

[Laughs.] Love Natalie. Because I've done it so many times, I think ofSurvivoras a sort of dysfunctional family that I belong to. I love all of the players, all of the production, all the people inside this family, CBS, the whole thing, everyone is my family. And not every family is always totally healthy. There's conflict, there's drama, there's all of that. And of course, with the experiences that I had onSurvivor, there is that as well, but we're connected forever. It's this shared experience that very few people on earth get a chance to have and I'm super grateful for it, because it's been so extraordinary in my life, and most of my relationships are good, like I actually talked to Erik Reichenbach on the phone yesterday.

[Famously, Parvati Shallow, Amanda Kimmel, Cirie Fields, and Natalie Bolton convinced Reichenbach to hand over his immunity necklace before their Black Widow brigade voted him out.]

I think for the most part, I'm good with anybody. I'm chill. Sandra [Diaz-Twine, who wonHeroes vs. Villains] and I have buried the hatchet, and I don't think I have any issues with anybody else. There's some people that I would rather just not have a relationship with. And you know that sometimes happens in a family too.

Did JT ever apologize? Did you get any apologies from people afterHeroes vs. Villains?

I can't remember ever talking to JT afterHeroes vs. Villains. Candice [Woodcock] apologized. Some people did. They were like, I would have voted for you. I'm sorry I didn't. Which is nice to hear, but it's also like, eh.

Yeah, you missed it in the moment. Whatever.

[Laughs.] Whatever. But yeah, if somebody's gonna apologize, yeah, I really don't hold a grudge. I think that that's a waste of energy. It just makes people feel icky inside. So I don't want that energy. So if somebody apologizes to me, and it's sincere, I accept.

Still, you've made a career of this! You're a professional reality star now and content creator. Every moment I turn around, you have another show. I can’t wait.

Yeah! And now I'm creating them and pitching them. So I'm developing shows and moving into hosting and producing.

Can you say more about that? Anything that our WIRED friends should know about going forward?

I have been pitching a show that I created with my friend Amy Bean, she and I do theNice Girls Don't Winpodcast together. It's just a fun show. It’s kind of an intersection of horror and reality competition TV.

Amazing. I mean, I clearly have a vested interest in this going somewhere.

This doesn't exist anywhere else on the planet. So we'll see what other people say once we get this out to all the networks. So that’s what I’m working on this summer, and then I’ll probably be starting a new book project, because I have to intellectualize all my feelings.

It's wild to think that if you played onSurvivorright now, production would probably be talking about your family experiences and the way that you were raised and having to escape that, your relationships, your queer identity.

I'm so glad I got to tell my story in my own words. I'm actually really grateful that I playedSurvivorin the era that I played where they didn't include my backstory and my family history and what was happening in my life, because I got to tell that. That's my story. I don't want anyone else telling that story.

Are there parts of theSurvivorprocess, the way it looks right now, that aren't just a little bit exploitative? The emotional music comes on and you know they’re going to tell us this very intense story and why we should feel this way. It can be a little much.

It's so interesting. I think what they're trying to do is to give viewers a more complete picture of the players, so that they know who we want to root for. And I think they're pulling on our emotions and our heartstrings as viewers, so that we get attached to certain players in a deeper way, in a more emotional way. I am amazed that some of those players are willing to share the things they're willing to share. That's some really personal information for your

30 seconds ofSurvivor.

So many of the things you touch on in the book are, as we've been talking about, incredibly personal. They're also really political, like the way that women are used and abused, society's perception of women, LGBTQ rights, addiction. How does this make its way to the island? Are you talking about politics when you’re there?

For me as a player, I can't speak to anyone else's experience, but I am looking to bond with every single person in a very short amount of time in a deep way. So I ask questions about people. I find out where their belief systems lie, which you're relating to their politics. But it's not about Democrat or Republican, it's more about, What do they value? I have a lot of empathy for people, and I've gone through some pretty harrowing personal life experiences, especially around addiction, especially around just acceptance of human beings across the board. Life is hard, we're all doing the best we can. And I offer open space for people to be themselves.

I connect most with people who share values of acceptance, and I gravitate towards those people, and I probably will blindside people who don't.

Who is on that blindside list?

I'm gonna win the game. And if your value systems don't jive with mine, we're not gonna connect, we're not gonna bond. I'm not gonna be able to trust you, and so I'm gonna have to blindside you, or get you out somehow, but it's most likely gonna be a blindside.

Did this come up at all in Australia?

It comes up every single time. Yeah, in every game. This is how I connect with people, it's through sharing stories. Being curious about other people, asking questions, and then looking for places where the things that we care about connect.

You don't have to tell me who, but I would be OK if you did—what are some of the most egregious non-connection moments you've experienced on the island, political or otherwise?

Well, I don't know JT’s politics or Rupert [Boneham]'s, or, any of those guys onHeroes vs. Villainsfor that matter, like Colby [Donaldson], but I don't think that we share the same politics, and we very clearly did not connect. And you saw how that turned out for those guys. [Laughs.]

OK, the Black Widow is still here. I think she's in the room with us right now. I'm sorry to say.

I'm telling you, I’m a whole person.

You're a holistic person.

I know, but inside of a game, it's a bubble, and inside of that container, who are your people, who's your tribe, and who's not? I have a very high tolerance for people and their differences, and I just think do you, as long as you’re not hurting someone else or taking away someone else's right to be a person. But if you're going to come after someone's right to exist as themselves? No, that doesn't work for me.

When people are on the beach, and they’re at the basest version of themselves, I’ve always wondered what comes out after that.

Yeah. I mean, I think the most divisive for me was theMicronesiafinale and theHeroes vs. Villainsfinale. That's where you see the politics play out. That's where the voting happens for the winner. I think you saw where people stood in those moments. And that's not to say that people can't change once they get more information, because some of them did apologize afterward. But, you know, some of them didn't, too.

Survivoris a very political game. I've talked with Jon Lovett on hispodcastabout this too. I think there's a reason why people who are into politics loveSurvivor.

My entire life is explained now!

You’re welcome. I validate you.

For my last question, I want to get back to you as this professional reality TV star, content creator, and author. You are continuing and continuing to put yourself out into the world, even though you’ve been burnt by that so many times. Why did you decide that you were going to keep pushing?

I think it's because I am a Scorpio moon. I don’t know! I just have this deep hunger to feel. And I'm super curious and adventurous. And I really like putting myself into extreme environments where I have very little control, and seeing what happens and how I adapt, and pushing myself to be resilient. And I think that that is what keeps me growing and young. I want to grow, I want to learn, I want to develop. I want to get better and better and enjoy all there is to enjoy. And I even enjoy suffering. And pain is enjoyable to me, alongside joy and ecstasy and all pleasure. All of it is kind of enjoyable.

So like I wrote about in my book, this is my kink, likeSurvivorreality TV competition shows, putting myself out there, exposing myself in a way that supports people’s development and growth and people's acceptance of themselves. That's what my life is about. So I'm gonna keep doing it, even if it seems insane.